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Playing with the ISC
08-14-2011, 07:45 PM
Post: #1
Playing with the ISC
Had a couple of games today with my ISC. I fielded the grey daimyo, blue ashigaru and yellow komuso. First game I got wiped out by a bamaka list and second just lost to a convoy list.
I seem to be on the back foot a lot as I only have a few figures and am usually playing 5 so am being out activated. Not having much joy with the grey daimyo he just doesn't seem to fill any role well.
I have also brought the Grey kitsune, Black Kunoichi, Carmin Ronin and Green Mamushi but as I haven't got them painted yet have yet to use them.
Any tactical help would be appreciated. My regular gaming buddy has fairly extensive bamaka nd convoy list to choose from.

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08-19-2011, 09:32 PM
Post: #2
RE: Playing with the ISC
Playing with the ISC isn't easy, that's for sure. You will be out-activated quite often, but your average SPD is far above the others, so you can usually play the right Drone at the right time.
But what is the right Drone ?
As your choices are very narrow due to the cost of your team-mate, be sure to have at least one of the following in your group :
-The Warrior : a Drone able to mow down your opponents. In Eden, you can win a game without inflicting a single wound, but only with the right mission, with the right team, against the 'right' opponent.
-The Leader : a Drone with a good PSI (I consider 6 to be a minimum), for the tactical possibilities, and some support abilities.
-The Backup : a Drone with interesting abilities, able to provide support for the others, be it offensive or defensive support.
Of course, I basically described the content of the starter Big Grin, but that's the spirit.
If we consider your team (Daymio, Komuso, Ashigaru), it falls short of a real Warrior (CBT 6 at least), has two potential leaders with interesting abilities but completely different ways of using them (the daymio is best kept safe behind the front, supporting the fighters with bonus AP and finishing the wounded, unlike the komuso who can be close to the action - not being easy to charge - where his sonic wave and AP diminishing ablity are most scary), and one - very good - backup, but whose abilities won't be as useful as they could be (mainly because his defensive abilities are more useful to the Daymio, which should stay behind, so you're left with the Komuso on the front line). Of course, you are also 5 points short of the 100 points standard, but I like the challenge Wink
I advise you to quickly paint the Ronin, since it will fill the Warrior place very well. The Kitsune is also a good Leader, but requires some practice as his fighting skills shouldn't be used unwisely. The Mamushi and/or the Kunoichi are great backups, in a more offensive style.
Hope that helpsIdea
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11-13-2011, 05:44 PM
Post: #3
RE: Playing with the ISC
(08-19-2011 09:32 PM)Berf Wrote:  Playing with the ISC isn't easy, that's for sure. You will be out-activated quite often, but your average SPD is far above the others, so you can usually play the right Drone at the right time.
But what is the right Drone ?
As your choices are very narrow due to the cost of your team-mate, be sure to have at least one of the following in your group :
-The Warrior : a Drone able to mow down your opponents. In Eden, you can win a game without inflicting a single wound, but only with the right mission, with the right team, against the 'right' opponent.
-The Leader : a Drone with a good PSI (I consider 6 to be a minimum), for the tactical possibilities, and some support abilities.
-The Backup : a Drone with interesting abilities, able to provide support for the others, be it offensive or defensive support.
Of course, I basically described the content of the starter Big Grin, but that's the spirit.
If we consider your team (Daymio, Komuso, Ashigaru), it falls short of a real Warrior (CBT 6 at least), has two potential leaders with interesting abilities but completely different ways of using them (the daymio is best kept safe behind the front, supporting the fighters with bonus AP and finishing the wounded, unlike the komuso who can be close to the action - not being easy to charge - where his sonic wave and AP diminishing ablity are most scary), and one - very good - backup, but whose abilities won't be as useful as they could be (mainly because his defensive abilities are more useful to the Daymio, which should stay behind, so you're left with the Komuso on the front line). Of course, you are also 5 points short of the 100 points standard, but I like the challenge Wink
I advise you to quickly paint the Ronin, since it will fill the Warrior place very well. The Kitsune is also a good Leader, but requires some practice as his fighting skills shouldn't be used unwisely. The Mamushi and/or the Kunoichi are great backups, in a more offensive style.
Hope that helpsIdea

Just an update still struggling with the ISC. I think about 0 wins and 8 losses Confused
The being out activated continues to be a huge disadvantage in this game as does the numbers game for lots of the missions. My opponent seems to have lots of quirky little 10-15 point modesl that run rings around me. The carmin ronin has helped with damage output (when he hits Dodgy)but all my forces seem very fragile and tend to go down quick despite their armour.
I am also very surprised for a tech force we seem to have no shooting options of any consequence.
Has anyone out there had any success with them? I would love to hear what lists you run and tactics you apply to them.
About ready to put them in the storage cupboard and hope for something better in the new faction we hear whispers of. Shame because they are stunning models.

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11-15-2011, 09:08 PM
Post: #4
RE: Playing with the ISC
ISC can be hard to master, I'm well aware of this. 8 defeats in a row is more than bad luck (unless you're especially unlucky, but I can't believe that Smile), so please, tell us what you were playing and what you were facing (teams and missions especially).
If you faced the Turrets mission a lot, while being outactivated, then it's not surprising you lost. That Mission is extremely hard to counter with ISC, if you don't know how to handle it. If that is the case, I'd be happy to point out some tips, but the tips depends of what team you were facing.
Analysing your opponent right from the start (preparation phase, sweet preparation phase...) is crucial, and handling it all along the game is no easy task either, but I need some details in order to help you.
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11-17-2011, 05:59 AM (This post was last modified: 11-17-2011 06:00 AM by Peoples Champ.)
Post: #5
RE: Playing with the ISC
I have a very canny opponent to be sure who has both Convoy and Bamaka. He also has lots of models to choose from so you are always facing a different list everytime. Nearly everytime I am faced with 3 vs 5 models which does allow him to save his heavy hitters to last when I have activated everything.
We played two games over the weekend the first was vs bamaka with Bak and Dacke, Ngozi and Sabaka vs my ISC with the Grey Daimyo, Yellow Komuso and the Blue Ashigaru. The Bamakas revealed mission (we use random missions) was Land Protection and the ISC had a secret mission Priority Target. So he just had to get models in the centre and clock up the VP while I had to kil him. Big problem was dealing with Sabaka!! He killed everyone from memory and I just struggled to get through him.
Second game Convoy with Gretchen and Lute, Mark, Leo, Erhard and Luther vs my ISC with the Carmin Ronin, Black Kunoichi and a Green Mamushi (such a cool model). The Convoy got a random mission of "Infiltration" and ISC had a secret mission of "The Four Winds". Tough to play 3 models vs 6!!
Better game but again the numbers allowed my opponent to spread out and get past me as I did not have enough models to slow him down. I was forced to try to stop him as by merely fulfilling my mission I could only net 45VPs while he could get 100. In the end the carmin ronin struggled for 3 turns to try and kill Erhard. The Mamushi took out Gretchin but then died in the last turn to Luther and Lute. Mark just strolled down one side of the board and grabbed 35 easy VPs whilst luther got 35 and I ended up with only the VPs for killing Erhard and Gretchin.
To me the ISC seem overpriced for their abilites and the continual out activiation is a killer. I would like to see some sort of pass action brought into the rules. IE for every extra model you have your opponent gets one pass action every turn where he does not has to activate a model.

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11-17-2011, 06:43 AM (This post was last modified: 11-17-2011 06:50 AM by bruiser.)
Post: #6
RE: Playing with the ISC
no , 2 of my models didn't count towards mission and to get 35VP my models needed to be alive. I don't think u used the abilities of the models at the correct time. To be fair u should have killed Gretchen and you did put Mark off to the side even though I don't think lure works like that. Also u have as many models as I do to choose a list from and you will always be out activated and just have to adapt tactics to suit. Also remember that u don't have to use all your AP and can keep some for dodging or parrys.

see http://minersandsteamfittersunion.blogspot.com/ for some commentary on games

Cheers
Bruce

PS I'm not hijacking thread just adding to it!

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11-17-2011, 06:30 PM
Post: #7
RE: Playing with the ISC
(11-17-2011 06:43 AM)bruiser Wrote:  no , 2 of my models didn't count towards mission and to get 35VP my models needed to be alive. I don't think u used the abilities of the models at the correct time. To be fair u should have killed Gretchen and you did put Mark off to the side even though I don't think lure works like that. Also u have as many models as I do to choose a list from and you will always be out activated and just have to adapt tactics to suit. Also remember that u don't have to use all your AP and can keep some for dodging or parrys.

see http://minersandsteamfittersunion.blogspot.com/ for some commentary on games

Cheers
Bruce

PS I'm not hijacking thread just adding to it!

Agree two don't count towards getting VPs but they do count towards activations which is my point with ISC. One non scorer is particualry nasty as he puts a slow counter on you Dodgy. Four did count which gives you a possible 140VPs plus I only had a possible 45VPs plus what ever I could kill. I think the only option in that game was to try and kill you I just didn't have the numbers to do it or maybe I chose the wrong ones. I really struggle with how I could have won that game so interested in what Berf can offer in as far as suggestions.

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11-18-2011, 12:41 AM
Post: #8
RE: Playing with the ISC
(11-17-2011 05:59 AM)Peoples Champ Wrote:  I have a very canny opponent to be sure who has both Convoy and Bamaka. He also has lots of models to choose from so you are always facing a different list everytime. Nearly everytime I am faced with 3 vs 5 models which does allow him to save his heavy hitters to last when I have activated everything.

Let us look at your opponent first. He may have more models to choose from, but nothing you cannot manage. Bamakas are your worst nightmare, considering they can field a good mix of strong fighters (Ngwane, Tarar or Sabaka being the strongest ones), good support and easily more fighters than you (usually between 4 or 5).
But there are also 'no-threat fighters' in Bamaka for you. Abama, Bak and Dacke, Sigujana, Jumamosi or Zaafarani cannot do any harm to your Drones if you're carefull. So you just have to keep an eye on them and handle your Mission and/or his, knowing those fighters won't be able to deliver significant attacks or use effective abilities, so there's that (only Abama can be troublesome, because he's extremely hard to kill, so just forget him and concentrate on the rest, but don't let him block your movements, that's his main purpose when he faces ISC).
By comparison, Convoy is way easier to handle for the ISC. Sure, they can field more fighters (5 or 6), but only a few can hold a candle to you in hand-to-hand combat (Otto, Heinrich (both) and Friedrich, Georg a little). Avoid them (Otto, Heinrich and Georg are quite easy to avoid with their average SPD) or deal with them when it's safe (no AP, cannot use chainsaw, etc.). Mark is a threat if you don't have a Drone to put in front line and attract his arrows without risk (Kunoichi, Mamushi or Konchu, place any one of them in a good spot, behind cover is better, and Mark's arrows won't be a major threat). Take care of the rest in brawl mode and it shouldn't be to hard, especially with the Ronin Wink
Another aspect of the game to take into account : Tactical cards. While you can rely on these when facing Bamakas, don't focus your strategy too much on them when facing Convoy, because they have lots of possibilities to counter them. Gretchen, Luther, Heinrich (old one) and now Frantz, all can, and will, put a damper on your tactical phase. So don't rely to much on them.

(11-17-2011 05:59 AM)Peoples Champ Wrote:  We played two games over the weekend the first was vs bamaka with Bak and Dacke, Ngozi and Sabaka vs my ISC with the Grey Daimyo, Yellow Komuso and the Blue Ashigaru. The Bamakas revealed mission (we use random missions) was Land Protection and the ISC had a secret mission Priority Target. So he just had to get models in the centre and clock up the VP while I had to kil him. Big problem was dealing with Sabaka!! He killed everyone from memory and I just struggled to get through him.

Now into the action ! OK, let's be honest, considering the teams and Missions, it was inevitable that you lose. I wouldn't stand a chance either, it is simply impossible. The reasons are numerous. First of all, you don't have any fighter to deal with Sabaka (a problem I pointed out in a message above), so you cannot handle half of the opponent's team. Your only option would be to try Crushing him with the Daimyo and it requires luck every time, so not an option.
Considering you 'need' to kill at least one of his fighters to prevent him from doing his Missions – partly because he has the advantage of having a 100 points team and you don't – your only option is to go for Back or Dacke. You cannot catch Ngozi if he doesn't want you to (too fast) and with Agile, he dodges your attack way too easily, so the other pygmies are your targets. But they can also dodge pretty well and once you're done trying to kill them, Sabaka will come to show you his PhD title (Pound Head Down).
In short, your opponent just has to wait for you to come and try doing your Mission, while he scores every turn by doing nothing (once he is in the center, that is). My main advice here would be : don't play random Missions ! Choosing your Mission is very important in the game, as is the entire Preparation phase (see here), because you have to take into account a lot of things (the teams, the order of the Phase because of the choice of Mission and the Deployment, etc.). If you had played anything other than a 'killing' Mission, you would have had a chance. For example, Ancient artefacts, the Excavations and, mainly, Reconnaissance, and you could have won (even easily with Reco).
I know people who enjoy playing random Missions or with random Tactical cards, or even with random teams ! But they have mastered their faction very well and try something new for fun. Try a regular game, with a full 100 points team and a chosen Mission (still, no brawl versus Sabaka, unless your team is specially built to take him down, Ronin, Konchu and Hadakauma or Shogun being the best ones) and you will see things differently, I assure you Smile

(11-17-2011 05:59 AM)Peoples Champ Wrote:  Second game Convoy with Gretchen and Lute, Mark, Leo, Erhard and Luther vs my ISC with the Carmin Ronin, Black Kunoichi and a Green Mamushi (such a cool model). The Convoy got a random mission of "Infiltration" and ISC had a secret mission of "The Four Winds". Tough to play 3 models vs 6!!
Better game but again the numbers allowed my opponent to spread out and get past me as I did not have enough models to slow him down. I was forced to try to stop him as by merely fulfilling my mission I could only net 45VPs while he could get 100. In the end the carmin ronin struggled for 3 turns to try and kill Erhard. The Mamushi took out Gretchin but then died in the last turn to Luther and Lute. Mark just strolled down one side of the board and grabbed 35 easy VPs whilst luther got 35 and I ended up with only the VPs for killing Erhard and Gretchin.

Okay, so what do we have here ? Random Missions again, but this time, it is much more balanced. Mainly because you can wait for him in your half of the field, while he must cross the entire field to achieve his goal. You're playing with 95 points again, but that's not as crippling as the last time, although you could (should) have replaced the Kunoichi or the Mamushi with the Daimyo or the Komuso, but I will come back on that later.
Here, I think you might have missed something in the rules, and that's why being out-activated is a pain : look at page 16, last paragraph. You can choose not to activate a fighter (except for the first activation of the round) and pass the hand to your opponent. If he does the same, the round ends. It is extremely important to know when to pass the hand as an ISC player, because it can save you a lot of trouble. In this case, as you could win just by staying in your half of the field (and eventually use the Burrowing ability to make the Mamushi pop up anywhere, say in a corner, at the last round), you could pass the hand almost every time up to the third round, in order to let you opponent come, so you can out-activate him !
Just place your Drone in his path if you have to, play a Contaminated area at the beginning in order to lead him where you want or separate his troop and wait for him to play his 'mission-fullfilling fighters', so you can go where he goes. Aim at Gretchen and Luther (the Mamushi and Kunoichi working together can take Luther down in round 2 with a little luck), the easiest targets and voilà, opponent's leader dead and a top score of 70 VP, while you can still score some VP and/or prevent him from scoring Big Grin
Now, if you had the Komuso instead of one of the 30 Drone, you could have blocked ways very efficiently, seeing only Luther has a chance of charging you, and your AP decreasing ability is the best when it comes to cripple someone with AP left to dodge, or to prevent someone from getting away (losing 2 AP when you have to run across the Field is such a pain). Fear markers can also work wonders, as Infiltration requires an Action ability, a type of Action you cannot perform with a Fear marker.
And last, select your TC accordingly. Even with Luther and Gretchen, you can build a strategy with your TC. For example : first round, Contaminated area, for restraining his movement possibilities. Second round, Enragement, the purpose here is for him to cough up SP, because a Kunoichi with Rage marker is so annoying. Third round, Cautious move, if Mark is threatening, but between the Smokescreen, the Kunoichi and/or the Mamushi, it shouldn't be a problem, so play Inhuman force if Mark is no threat, again, either he cancels it or he suffers, you don't lose. Fourth or fifth round, Provocation in order to prevent someone escaping.
Of course, adapt yourself to the events. If Luther uses successfully (2+ successes on his PSI roll) his Preacher ability, don't waste precious SP if it is not a matter of survival. The purpose of this startegy is to make him run out of SP early, so you can play the Provocation TC at the right time (your best TC considering the Missions, you make him come to you and it can prevent him from doing his mission).
Well, that makes quite a long post, but I think I covered the essential. If you have any question or need some advice, ask away ! I hope everything is understandable, I haven't written in english so much since high school Tongue

P.S.: You seem to have used the Lure TC on an opponent's fighter, but that was a mistake. The Lure TC has been changed with the last batch of erratas and can now target only an allied fighter (which is its true purpose). Sorry for the inconvenience, I checked in the download section and the ISC starter pack is not updated, so it's our fault.
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11-18-2011, 05:25 AM
Post: #9
RE: Playing with the ISC
Cheers Berf that helped alot. The pass option we missed so thanks for pointing that out. Take your point on the random missions will leave those for a while. I will keep on with them and see how I go.

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11-18-2011, 09:34 PM
Post: #10
RE: Playing with the ISC
You're welcome Smile
Don't hesitate to ask for any advices or explanations, we know some aspects of the game are not always easy to grasp (again, see the topic First game of Eden and my explanation of the Preparation phase, tricky Wink), so if something seems wrong or completely unbalanced, let us know.
It may be a mistranslation (although we try to be extra clear and our proofreaders are great, a mistake can happen) or something you missed.
We're currently gathering every bit of information on the french side to provide a complete FAQ in both french and english (other languages should follow) and maybe some 'in depth' explanations.
So, again, the more you share your concerns about balance, errors, etc., the more we can pinpoint what we need to do to clarify things. After all, we can do it 'live' in France (during tounaments or conventions), but we need to do it worldwide Big Grin
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